The Merger of Esports and Traditional Sports
ICRAVE’s Greg Merkel participated in a lively discussion with other industry professionals about the integration of esports into sporting environments and spaces.
Read on for the full transcript!
Thanks to Esports Venue Summit for the opportunity.
The Merger of Esports and Traditional Sports
“With the current coronavirus pandemic decimating the sporting and events calendar, traditional sports are increasingly using virtual simulations to engage with their fans, further integrating esports into the mainstream sports industry. Many existing Stadium and Arenas are also examining how they can repurpose their spaces to accommodate live esports events.
During this session a panel of industry experts will discuss how traditional sports and stadia are now integrating esports in to their fan experiences, examining synergies and differences between them as well as sharing their opinions on how this will develop further in the future.”
Full Discussion Transcript:
James Fraser-Murison:
Hello everyone and welcome to session eight of the eSports Venue Summit. Session eight is the merger of eSports and traditional sports. We've got a live panel here, obviously, in front of us, but first of all, if I may introduce myself, I'm the moderator of this session. My name is James Fraser-Murison.
James Fraser-Murison:
I'm the director of learner, director of learning sorry, for the creative arts here in Queen Mary's College in Basingstoke, and I'm very fortunate to have played a small part in the first ever B-tech eSports that's been put together by the British eSports Association and Pearson.
James Fraser-Murison:
We've got 65 students here, currently involved in either the B-tech or the Enrichment, and we play championship games every Wednesday and it's proving a wonderful success. Without farther adieu, I'm going to introduce you to the variety of panels and expertise here.
James Fraser-Murison:
But just to let you know that this session here is put in association with our sponsors, COX Architecture. Without farther adieu let me introduce you first of all to Nikita. If you wouldn't mind saying hello?
Nikita Buffee:
Hi everyone, my name is Nikita, I work for Allied eSports as the head of business development and partnerships.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you very much, if I can move now to Greg to say hello.
Greg Merkel:
Hello everybody, Greg Merkel, I'm a creative director at ICRAVE Design. Experienced design firm based in New York City, and actually now in Miami, hot off the presses.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you very much. And over to Nick, please.
Nick Sautner:
Good morning everyone, my name's Nick Sautner, I'm chief executive of Eden Park, New Zealand's national stadium. Eden Park has 117 year history and tradition of historically sport, and we've recently moved into the eSports area.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you so much. Welcome. Penultimately we've got Seb, if you could say hello Seb.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Yeah, hi everybody, Seb Carmichael-Brown from Hashtag United, which is a one of a kind English football team and also eSports team. And we primarily focus on FIFA as our main title for our eSports players.
James Fraser-Murison:
Fantastic, and finally Alastair please say hello.
Alastair Richardson:
Hi everybody, Alastair Richardson, I'm a principal director from COX Architecture, a key designer of venues, and also influencer through design on how fans engage with buildings and sports. So, thank you.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you very much. Hello, and welcome again to the panel and to all of our viewers. Now the plan for today is that there's a couple of questions that we're going to work through together as a panel, and depending on obviously the answers and the content we're going to bounce around and get some more ideas from people as we get into this.
James Fraser-Murison:
The first question, however, is going to be directed to Nikita, and that's focused around the pandemic. In essence, due to the ongoing pandemic, obviously that's taking place globally, and it's sped up the development of professional sports franchises now looking to add eSports to their roster, do you think that this momentum will continue? Or do you think it will eventually settle down a bit?
Nikita Buffee:
I definitely think it will continue. I hope so. I think if it doesn't I'd be pretty jocked, and I'd be definitely wondering what traditional sports were doing. I think it's been a great way to force things along and accelerate some sports brand and the engaging with eSports and looking at how they can use eSports.
Nikita Buffee:
One of the things I think we've seen recently, over the past few years, is traditional sports teams picking up a eSports team. And quite often they draw a tight correlation between like, hey, if we're in football or soccer for American viewers, well, we need to be in FIFA.
Nikita Buffee:
And I don't think that's actually always the case. Because the fact is you've kind of got football covered if you're a football team. But the reality is, is that eSports and gaming as a bigger picture has the great opportunity to create content and for fan engagement. And I think that's really where the opportunities lie. And it would be a real shame to not seize this.
Nikita Buffee:
And we've had this where we've had the ... I'm forgetting ... The Las Vegas Knights ... I was thinking what were they, Kings, or what were they ... The Las Vegas Knights, which are a hokey team in Vegas. They've blown up, they've done really well. They would come to our arena with some of their players and would play Fortnight with the kids and the families. And so it was great.
Nikita Buffee:
That was a great opportunity for parents, or dads who are big fans of the team to come meet the players, the kids to meet the players, play with them. And it wasn't hockey game. And that was a really good way for the junior players to build up their social media following, to build engagement with fans. For the actual team itself to build up engagement, and that's just a great example from that.
Nikita Buffee:
And I would hope that as we see this develop and as we see teams engage with their fans via influencers, via content development, content creation, tournaments, all of these different levels, I hope that that will continue. Because it will show that eSports gaming and traditional sports are industries that I think that can strengthen each other and that can engage with the market in a different way, and hopefully continue to bring fans to brands in new and exciting ways.
James Fraser-Murison:
Okay, thank you. Alastair, is there anything you could probably add to that as well based on your experience?
Alastair Richardson:
Yeah, sure. I think one of the biggest things through the pandemic is obviously the way that we're consuming sport has changed. The live experience of going to a live sporting event has been severely curtailed. It's coming back of course at Eden Park, which had a fantastic game the other day and here in Australia we had our grand finals last weekend where we got crowds back, but we've had a nine month hiatus of no crowds going to venues.
Alastair Richardson:
And the future with crowds coming in is going to be very different until there's been an effective response to COVID. So the chance, the opportunity for teams, for sports, professional sports to engage with the community in a smaller scale with greater penetration is the thing that this pandemic is going to create.
Alastair Richardson:
So I think the notion of how teams and how, from a spacial planning and architecture point of view, what we're going to see is a far greater penetration of built environment that responds to teams being spread through those brands throughout the world using eSports as a platform to create brand loyalty. Because essentially that's what the professional teams want, they want brand loyalty.
Alastair Richardson:
So I think we can see some quite significant changes in that that the pandemic is going to cause and give great opportunity for brand penetration on to even through High Street. Because the truth of an eSports venue, that it is a platform that is computer and virtual and remote is we can put it anywhere. It doesn't need the infrastructure of a professional stadium.
James Fraser-Murison:
Of course. Absolutely. Greg, basing yourself on what Alastair's just said and the initial question, what are your thoughts in terms of where this may end up?
Greg Merkel:
Yeah, I think the digital nativeness of eSports has obviously allowed for us all to satisfy our itch to watch sports during COVID. And yes, some of it is coming back, or even if it's not people in seats in stadiums watching events, there is still football, baseball here in America, but I think that the trend was already there, right?
Greg Merkel:
Professional sports teams or whatever you want to call them, traditional sports, were already investing eSports.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yeah.
Greg Merkel:
I think the trend was already there. I think that this accelerated it. I think it opened people's eyes, open sports ownership people's eyes to investing in that. And I think people are always searching for content. I think that's the main driver. Content and like Alastair said, brand loyalty. And I think that this is a brilliant way to introduce traditional sports teams into, call it the wave of the future. So yeah, I definitely think that it's going to be an ongoing trend and hopefully keep up.
James Fraser-Murison:
Okay, thank you. Seb, we're both based in the UK, I believe. Aren't you? Aren't we?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Yep.
James Fraser-Murison:
So what are your thoughts. Obviously we've got a slightly global audience here today, which is fantastic, but again, taking that question and looking at it from your perspective and the UK perspective, what are your thoughts?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Well, I think it's just dragged a few people along, you know? The people that maybe were not ready to make a change or not convinced of a change. And let's be honest, most of them still won't be. They did a lot of these sports because they had no choice, because they couldn't do anything else. But that's a very good thing for the industry, is that people have been dragged into it, and would have seen a lot of success, if they've been able to do it wrong would have made a lot of learnings.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
But fundamentally, anyone who's operating any sort of sports property now or rights holder, or operating a platform of any kind, they will now be having a very, very different strategy ongoing about what continuity plans there are, should something like this happen again.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
I doubt very much, other than the very foreword thinking people, and maybe at the guys at the Wimbledon tennis club, who had the correct insurance and the things in place it seems to cover them for this sort of situation, but most people now will be thinking, "Right, what if it happens again?"
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So therefore I believe that eSports will, at worst case scenario, get shoehorned into people's budgets and plans as a backup plan, and therefore there will be things ready to go, investments made, which may be not as ideal as we'd like. Not the ideal way for traditional or mainstream sports to come into eSports, but it's something.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And I think the biggest problem that people have with eSports is they don't really understand it, and therefore by bringing more people into it, whether it's by hook or by crook, against their will or you know, forced into it because of necessity, that will start to expose them to the upside of it, and the understanding will improve, the delivery of it will improve, the execution of it will improve, and fundamentally this should be seen as a shot in the arm to the eSports industry getting on board traditional sports, I think.
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean it's certainly obviously come to the fore because of the pandemic, but the momentum was, as you say, there before. Hopefully. Even in the UK, which is saying something. Just before we go to question two, Nick, anything you'd like to contribute or add to it from your own experiences there too?
Nick Sautner:
No, I just agree with Seb's comments, that this will be the catalyst for change, and I think there will be still the need to drag people along. But it's certainly opened the eyes of many.
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely. Right. So we're going to actually start with you Nick for question two, if that's okay? Because I know you've got a really good video in order to be able to show the audience here. So, in your opinion, and the opinions of the panel, obviously, what are the main similarities and differences in terms of the expectations of the fans for live eSports versus main sports? And what key pointers can you offer to new audiences and venue owners?
Nick Sautner:
Well thanks for that James, and I think from our perspective, for the last three years we've been focused on increasing utilization. Most steady environments would acknowledge they've got, in most instances, over a billion dollar assets sitting with idle capacity. And so for us, our strategy has been looking at utilization and how we can actually introduce new audiences to get that greater utilization as a part.
Nick Sautner:
So, approximately six months ago we entered discussions around the installation of a high performance center at Eden Park. That was the catalyst for us to then get investment through companies like, whether it be Spark in New Zealand, around 5G technology, or even entering conversations with brands that didn't necessarily align with the historic content that has been played at the park.
Nick Sautner:
So, companies like Logitech that we wouldn't have otherwise had a conversation with around icon partnerships. Then all of a sudden they're talking to us about more than just cricket and rugby being played, or music events or functions. So, I wanted to show the example of a space, we've got over 25 facilities at Eden Park. Three to six functions a day. But there was always going to be the opportunity to utilize existing infrastructure and repurpose those areas. So I'm going to show a video of what we've been able to deliver at the park.
Nick Sautner:
I'm really excited to be announcing the opening of the eSports High Performance Center at Eden Park. We feel these facilities are a great hub to build projects around not just for our own teams and projects, but for the industry more broadly. It's going to be a community facility, which we'll hope to bring together a number of players at the grass roots level, and then overlaying that group we're looking to have some professional programs as well.
Nick Sautner:
Our philosophy of placing eSports facilities in traditional sports infrastructure is something we've applied in multiple regions. It really is a win/win situation. I feel like we bring a younger demographic to some of these traditional sports venues, and really step into that digital world.
Nick Sautner:
These facilities have amazing space that's only used a few times a year sometimes for some of the big sporting events. Their fantastic internet or traditional sports broadcasts provide amazing IT infrastructure, and just more broadly the gyms, the personal trainers, that degree of professionalism does permeate through all the programs that are on there. Really exciting time to [inaudible 00:13:50] and hopefully really exiting time for New Zealand eSports as well.
Nick Sautner:
Eden Park New Zealand's national stadium is iconic and at the center of many special moments for both Kiwi's and tourists around the globe. The emergence of esports highlights the need for stadium diversification and further developing the fan experience.
Nick Sautner:
The eSports center will showcase Eden Park's ability to evolve, diversify, and be at the forefront of technology. It will attract new audiences who may have never attended a rugby, football, or cricket match at Eden park, whilst delivering significant economic benefit. Auckland's unprecedented growth in recent years demonstrates the city's global appeal and diverse communities.
Nick Sautner:
Thanks James, so really from our side it's a great example of where we can see a piece of infrastructure being repurposed and introducing a new audience to the facility.
James Fraser-Murison:
That looks amazing. As a teacher within the UK here that's absolutely something we need to aspire to. But start big I guess, so why not? In terms of Alastair, your opinion based on the similarities and differences, but any advice you could give to prospective owners about trying to bring in a new audience. Anything that you can add for the panel, please?
Alastair Richardson:
Yeah, I think there's possibly a couple of little things to add on to Nick's excellent presentation there and what they're doing at Eden Park. If I talk to venue first, I think what we're going to see is a combination between venues and content providers and how they can work. So here in Melbourne we have Disney through Marvel that have now a very close relationship with the code, the AFL, and also the naming rights of one of our major stadiums here, one that Nick was previously involved with.
Alastair Richardson:
That's giving a whole raft of new content provision for a new audience. Because it's bringing sport and the entertainment industry together. And by entertainment industry then we get into the whole raft of escapism, characters, development of characters, etc. And that's creating a fantastic crossover as an immersive experience that's combining traditional sport, content provision, and of course if you look at Disney and all of its content that it provides going into the gaming world, etc.
Alastair Richardson:
Where you can basically escape. So I think that element of escapism is a really big part of it. When we come to fan experience and going to venues, at the end of the day watching the event is merely a part of the social experience. It's the thing that brings people together.
Alastair Richardson:
So the important element on all of this is that we're not looking, dare I say it, at nerds in the back room, it's actually how the fans engage with themselves, with watching the spectacle, and socializing. The way venues make money at the end of the day is a socialization of fans attending sport, and we've got to get to that point in eSports.
Alastair Richardson:
Now, that might give a whole different raft of scale of venue, which could be in larger venues, and as I said before, it could be a part of High Street, but it'll create a notion of a social bond between fans to allow them to go and watch.
Alastair Richardson:
Now, the interesting thing on the social behavior of fans in eSports and you look at, again, you look at things like Comcast in terms of conferences, you have a different set of fans, potentially than the traditional sporting fans, that can actually live their escapism by looking not only at the players in eSports, but actually the characters in eSports as well. Their avatar, what is their avatar? How can actually I dress up as my avatar? And be a part of something that is a part of the game.
Alastair Richardson:
So that brings up a whole new experience for fans, in my mind, that are the things that we should be looking at to try to enhance the experience at the venues that are fortunate enough to host eSports.
James Fraser-Murison:
That's fantastic. There's lots of food for thought there as well. Obviously you can be a fan of both and you can experience both of those things differently, and on top of Comcast you look at Twitch and Discord, it brings a different audience on top of that as well. But they're still having that communication and they're still sharing something together, as you say. So that's great. Thank you.
James Fraser-Murison:
Nikita, if I can go to you really just to kind of add to what's been said really about the similarities and differences with that? And also again, any advice you might have to people listening about wanting to create- [crosstalk 00:18:09].
Nikita Buffee:
Yeah, I think we approach it obviously from a bit of a different angle in that we're not embedded in sports arenas. It's something that we have explored, especially as utilizing a space that isn't used 365 days a year. For us it's looking at the synergy of things. When we're in an MGMRI resort kind of in Vegas, what we've seen is that eSports allows you to attract a new type of user/player/visitor, that is keen to come along to these areas, because there is an eSports arena.
Nikita Buffee:
And the result of that isn't though that there's no secondary benefit that comes along, but the casino, the hotels, have actually noticed that there's been, every time we host a large scale eSports event, that the people that do come along, who wouldn't normally consider Vegas, or consider going to these sorts of things, end up going to a lot of shows.
Nikita Buffee:
So, if I go and see the Blue Man Group, or they'll go out to certain restaurants and so on. So those secondary benefits, and the synergy kind of goes back to what I was talking about [inaudible 00:19:20] traditional sports teams. There's a lot of ways to build your brand, there's a lot of ways to engage with these fans of eSports and gaming.
Nikita Buffee:
And I think Alastair referred to it in the user experience and how we're going to look to develop that. I know there's some really exciting things from some architect [inaudible 00:19:39] that we've been working with and talking to around the way that you create unique experiences for different scales and levels of groups.
Nikita Buffee:
And we actually just recently saw the bubble that League of Legends is using for their World Championships in China, and in the way they've created the stage and to create this virtual experience for its fans that are tuning in, and they're using techniques that actually draw from the VFX in TV shows and movies.
Nikita Buffee:
So, they're using an effect and a way of using green screen and real props similar to what was done with the Mandalorian. And I think that's really cool, and that's where I see [inaudible 00:20:19] to create a much more enhanced experience.
James Fraser-Murison:
Great, thank you. Seb, again, if we focus specifically on your journey and your thoughts about the similarities and differences, and then we'll finish off the discussion with Greg, if that's all right. So Seb, your view so far, please?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Difficult to speak from a venue perspective. I think FIFA eSports in the UK specifically, that's one it still hasn't quite got right yet. They hosted the main FEWC at the O2 arena, and they've had a decent number of spectators in there. But when you compare it to what's happening in other eSports, even in other countries to be honest, the FIFA events that have happened in the Scandinavian territory seem to have just incredible attendance.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And I do believe very much with what Alastair said about how the unique experiences you can give via certain other eSports types, [inaudible 00:21:08] the cosplay element of it. You just don't have that sort of thing necessarily in traditional sports. It does open up a whole other level of fan engagement and fan experience in person.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yeah.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And I think the FIFA eSports, which is really what the majority of my experience comes from just has a long way to go on that. And that's probably because that particular title has such a close parallel to the real live version of it, and because there is such a paralleled real life version of football in the game we all know and love, whereas other eSports present an opportunity to escape to a completely different real, and a completely another dimension where other things are possible.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So there's some things where titles like FIFA that mirror the real world have been advantageous, because they've allowed brands to get on board with it very quickly. They understand what football is. They understand the protagonists in football, whether that's the clubs the leagues or the players. And that's been a very safe haven for brands to come in and work with on commercial side of things. We've certainly found that. It's been easy for us to migrate across sponsors and brand partnerships from a traditional football team that we have, whether that's the men's or the women's team into eSports, and they find that soft entry point.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Whereas in other titles maybe there'd be more brands that are maybe more cautious about getting into a world that's harder to understand. [inaudible 00:22:26] they get to go into a world that's totally different and do some very unique things.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So with regards to venues, yeah, I mean I think the most important thing I would say is anyone who's repurposing a venue, just to make sure you get on people that are native to that world, bringing people that understand it. Because there's such a different unique experience.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
A lot of people, I think, mistakenly sometimes might think eSports is own category, eSports is 10,000 categories all in one. And they're all very, very different. So I think setting an eSports venue up would be very different from one title to another, so- [crosstalk 00:23:02].
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
I'm sure what Nick and his team are doing is consulting with the people from within those industries, as opposed to applying too much of the old rule of thumb that they've got from their vast experience of hosting world class traditional sports. Probably a lot of things can be carried over, but a lot of things will maybe rip the rule book up entirely.
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely, for many of us it's a dawning of a new empire, isn't it? But we've also got people who have been there and done it. And it's good to be able to use sessions like this as well to be able to have these conversations. Greg, just to finish up on the question please, at large, what are your observations and what have you noticed so far with the traditional and obviously as I say, the future of this?
Greg Merkel:
Yeah, speaking in terms of design, I think eSport's inherent use of technology is both a blessing and a curse. The expectation I feel surrounding eSports in terms of live events is for there to be this big technological wow moment or show.
Greg Merkel:
The pageantry surrounding eSports is less about what you'd see at a traditional live sporting event where it's tailgating or catching a fly ball or something like that. It's more about being emersed in the experience and the lighting and the drama of the event. So I feel like that's the biggest difference in terms of eSports and what you'd call traditional sporting events.
Greg Merkel:
The biggest similarity is, I think, we're all humans, right? And we all crave and seek out personal human contact and interactions. So actually living that experience together with a crowd and with a group of fans of like minded fans that are cheering people on, I think that's the biggest similarity that I think could be captured upon.
Greg Merkel:
In terms of suggestions or pointers, I think an investment in technology and that wow moment in the show is super important. I don't think that's going to get you all the way there though. We're involved with a project called The Sphere in Las Vegas, which is they're investing heavily in that technology component, in that wow moment.
Greg Merkel:
What we're bringing to it is also investing in the comprehensive immersive hospitality design, or what the experience can be in the arena outside of just what the actual sporting event is.
Greg Merkel:
So, amazing food venues, the opportunity for any other kind of events to happen at that arena. Basically a reason to come back over and over again. One thing that we preach is a multiplicity of uses. So having a reason to come back other than just that one event.
James Fraser-Murison:
That's great. Thank you. That's a really interesting point to finish up with that question, really. It's not necessarily all about the event you're watching, it's about the entire experience from start to finish.
James Fraser-Murison:
Okay, next question from me, obviously another emerging trend here is a wide variety of venue types looking to repurpose their existing space to take into account the eSports boom, if you will. We'll start with Alastair on this, Alastair, have you got any advice to those people that are out there who are looking to follow that journey?
Alastair Richardson:
Yeah, I think it sort of ties in some of the answers and discussions we've been having to date. The pandemic is changing the nature of our cities massively, both architecturally, socially. And as a result of that, I think we're going to see a lot of repurposing buildings. And this is where eSports could really get a reach, unlike the traditional infrastructure that has to be built around a basketball court or a rugby field, or a soccer field, which requires massive infrastructure.
Alastair Richardson:
I think the way that we're going to consume these elements is potentially smaller crowds, not just big crowds. There'll always be the big crowd event, but really the reach into community is going to be the smaller crowds.
Alastair Richardson:
So this gives an opportunity of engaging with High Street that is something that's completely new, and there's developers out there that are crying out to try and understand how this might move forward. Whether it's repurposing cinemas which have fantastic acoustics already, have a fantastic dark experience tailored to the right sorts of numbers of people to begin that process of market penetration.
Alastair Richardson:
All the way to how we reutilize, as Nick was saying, infrastructure that is already built for major events and has the ability to do a major event of a show. So I think there's going to be a variety of different approaches in eSports, that because we're at the beginning, and the infrastructure of the built infrastructure this is is smaller, technology rich, but it can be smaller, gives as far greater penetration than traditional sports.
Alastair Richardson:
And I think that is the part of where we're going to see eSports on High Street, or grow in the mall as a part of the experience of going to the mall.
James Fraser-Murison:
Great. Fantastic detailed answer there. Because again, it comes to it's a different kind of perspectives and journeys we all are, effectively, globally. Seb, you and I, again, obviously from a UK experience, or for me anyway, very much seeing what everyone else that is out there is doing and trying to see with some fascination and trepidation how the UK will get on board with this.
James Fraser-Murison:
There are obviously gaming arenas dotted around the UK, particularly Belong Gaming Arenas. How do you think that fits in in the grand scheme of things with what the UK's vision is? Or even the vision for yourself and your company?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Yeah, I think a similar thing. For us personally, we have our own dedicated HQ where our esports guys create content and play professionally and what have you. And I think the fundamental thing is probably more in place in most of the bigger areas now, and especially in town centers is just the proper internet connection.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
It sounds simple, but without those very, very basic things you can't have any form of intermittent if you're going to have a world class eSports event. You have to have that capability. And obviously you can bring that in remotely now, so it's not necessarily as important. There's lots of venues that are repurposed from time to time for things and that stuff gets shipped in and shipped out again. So it's all viable.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
But I couldn't add too much more than Alastair specifically there on venues. My own experience is very about repurposing of cinemas, we've seen that done to great effect by people at Gfinity in West London, and I can see there being a trend of that a lot more now with what's happening with the cinema industry at the moment.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And I think, again, it fits in with where we are, particularly in the UK with physical events. I don't ... Areas like the O2 are not necessarily needed for many events in this country. We don't need quite that level of spectator. So cinemas repurposed for a few hundred people could be where it is at for now, I think.
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely, I was fortunate enough to watch the e-Formula One up there, where you mentioned Seb, and that it was a fantastic experience for everyone and what they've managed to do for the two cinema screens combined. It's fantastic. And it's hopefully an idea of where we could go within the UK. Nikita, your experiences really in terms of where you're at and obviously how you've seen these things develop over the time, please?
Nikita Buffee:
Yeah, I think our arenas are very different in that we basically have no dark days. So we're either hosting large scale events like RIOT All Stars or Twitch Prime day, stuff like that, where they're taking over the full venue and we're hosting this large scale production with a small audience. Which the reality is we're never going to compete with someone like Eden Park, we're never going to compete like Twickenham.
Nikita Buffee:
The goal is to have enough of a live audience to create a unique atmosphere and something memorable, but then allow the developers to use the space to engage with their online audience that matters.
Nikita Buffee:
The thing that differentiates us that when we're not doing that we're running our own events. We're either running our own local community tournaments, we're either producing our own content or we're working with third parties.
Nikita Buffee:
And I think that is really, at the end of the day, I think that's how we create something sustainable, because it becomes tricky, especially at this time, I think the industry isn't necessarily at a point where it's going to take over. You're not going to have developers coming in and taking over a facility for enough days per year to make it sustainable, so you're going to have to look at something that's multi-dimensional.
Nikita Buffee:
But if you do want to look at pure eSports and gaming then I think this is the way to go, that you've got to really tap into your local community. You've got to tap into the people that want to come in day in and day out. Because that will create something unique and exciting and sustainable as the industry and the audiences scale and grow.
James Fraser-Murison:
Great, thank you. Greg, your views please?
Greg Merkel:
Yeah, that kind of ties in to my thinking as well. Of like, how do you ... What I was going to say is, you've got to design for flexibility. So going back to how I ended the last comment of multiplicity of uses.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yeah.
Greg Merkel:
How do you get people to go there on a daily basis? You do need to design the church for Easter Sunday, but what's happening the other 364 days of the year?
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely.
Greg Merkel:
So obviously programming for different kind of things can help that. But design, how can design help that? Are you going there to practice? Is it something that can facilitate you socializing? Is it a space that can facilitate learning? Training? Do you do work there? Are you going there for a drink after work? Are you going there for date night? I mean throwing out there some kind of crazy ideas of pushing the bounds of what these spaces can actually do and what they can provide.
Greg Merkel:
And I think what Alastair was saying about having the spaces be more accessible and less about this big event where it's something that you do maybe once a month or something, but it becomes more of like a daily interaction thing.
Greg Merkel:
I think that those would be the strategies that I would use in renovating these existing locations to host esports events.
James Fraser-Murison:
That's great. Thank you Greg, good Easter Sunday analogy. I like that, that works. And finally, Nick, obviously you're definitely going to have something to be able to contribute about this in terms of obviously the video you've just showed and your own journey and project. If you could finish this question off for us, please, that would be great.
Nick Sautner:
Yeah, well, I'm happy to join the conversation. Because I think there's been a number of comments that resonate. From our perspective we're very much of the view we needed the right people in the room. And we weren't experts and we wanted to have the experts in the room giving us the guidance and talking about that utilization piece.
Nick Sautner:
I heard Alastair talk about escapism and that's something that we aspire, most people in New Zealand, it's the national stadium, and they, to walk on the hallowed surface. So even with new infrastructure that we've been able to deliver in recent times, a 40 megabyte eight meter LED screen. It's then how can we adopt that technology for people to come and have that immersive experience at the park.
Nick Sautner:
It doesn't need to be a full stadium [inaudible 00:34:24] it can be as simple as having that memorable experience that then can be shared socially and introducing the audiences, and brands. Because ultimately for us, we're a billion dollar piece of infrastructure, and we need our commercial partners.
Nick Sautner:
And our commercial partners aren't necessarily, and not every person in New Zealand is interested in cricket and rugby, so, we need to be able to cater for all markets. I give the example, I've got a six month old and a two year old, will they be going to six rugby fixtures annually in 20 years time? Or will they be going to Marvel Stadium in Melbourne for 20 AFL games in 10 or 15 years time? The answer is probably no.
Nick Sautner:
So, people are looking for experiences, they're wanting to share those experiences, and I think this is just another example of how by introducing new content a stadium can keep relevant.
James Fraser-Murison:
Fantastic, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. There's an awful lot to be able to take that there with that question from you all, so, thank you. Next question we'll start off with ... Let's go with Seb, I think. Discussing how eSports has changed or evolved the digital strategy for venues, and also their financial models? And again, we'll start off with you Seb, just because of your company and your process, if I may?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Sure, I mean obviously not being a venue, the only venue we will have really, and obviously having a virtual in our digital platforms. I think that for us, personally, it's hard for me to share too much, really. Because we just don't have that experience of operating a physical venue. But other than a ground share with a non-league football stadium.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
It's very, very different, the fan experience is important for that, but primarily we focus on an online viewership, that's our main model.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yeah.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Whether that's gaming or physical. We obviously attend some of these venues, not for a long time now, hopefully again soon. But I think a shift in model towards increasing fan engagement at the venue, creating a unique experience, is certainly one that everyone should be looking at. We've certainly looked at it ourselves.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
There's a really great story that I'd implore anybody to look at, just from a sporting perspective, there's a story about a team called the Savannah Bananas. Anyone heard of them? Savannah Bananas are a little league baseball team in America. And coming at it from a very different angle to ours. They were a failing team they took over and renamed it this crazy, crazy name.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
But they focused on an incredibly immerse fan experience. Things happen there at a baseball game that would make the baseball tradition just shudder and turn over in their grave. However, they've managed to find a way as they set out, when other teams at their level are struggling to sell tickets to the games, they have sold out their entire inventory for home games for the whole season well in advance.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
They created a real buzz around it. Yes, it's a limited number, it's not a 50,000 seated stadium, but it's a very good example of how somebody without a preexisting audience, without a preexisting history and without any different property than what's already happening in baseball have been able to recreate their property in a new world that caters and excites an audience.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And they're now doing the opposite to us, we're trying to go more towards that and find a way of giving people a physical experience where they come to our games and starting to build out a more physical experience. Not the best time in the world to be doing that, however, that's part of our longer term strategy.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Whereas they're doing the opposite, they've absolutely nailed getting this local community completely bought into what they're doing and investing in it, and they've maximized their potential commercially for that. They're now trying to do what we've done, which is build an online audience and then scale themselves out across the world.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
But definitely would advocate, anyone who wants to look at fan experience at venue to look at the Savannah Bananas, I'm going to use sort of half an American accent there, one to look at as far as a good case study.
James Fraser-Murison:
You had me hooked on banana's. Thank you, okay, I will look that up. I'm intrigued. This is kind of a conversation there that will particularly branch out to Nick and Alastair, again, because of their backgrounds. And then we'll see again where Nick and Greg fall within this. So, Nick, are you okay to run with the digital strategy here? Where you're looking at how that's changed or evolved, and the financial models that go alongside that?
Nick Sautner:
Yeah, well I think from our side the strategy, and we talked in our business around weeks, months, and years. COVID hit, we pretty much in a 24 hour period lost our entire revenue stream. So we acted quickly. We made some decisions around putting roles into hibernation. And tried to ensure that the coming out the other side we emerged stronger, then we had this strategy around weeks.
Nick Sautner:
What could we do to utilize the facility during the lockdown periods, and then the emerging stronger focus to next years. And that includes infrastructure, so Alastair's talked about venue design and [inaudible 00:39:30], we've seen, and I think there will be a renaissance when, whether there be a vaccine or a solution, around COVID.
Nick Sautner:
People want to get back and really engage. Our crowds for our super rugby season post COVID were probably three times what we were getting prior to. We sold out three fixtures. Our All Blacks fixtures always sell out, but we had a 19 day lead time and were able to sell out our fixture last Sunday.
Nick Sautner:
So there's no question that people want the escapism and that connection that stadiums can provide. In terms of technology you just look at the evolution within stadiums. So 20 years ago we'd be talking about wifi, and then now you look at and say, "Well, with unlimited data plans and 5G capability, what is required within a stadium? And what can be afforded?" And then that links into the experience and the fan experience.
Nick Sautner:
As I mentioned we just put in a 40 meter by eight meter LED screen. That content will, yes, there'll be replays from the field, but the majority of the content is about the fan experience and how people will engage with opportunities. Who's to say there won't be eSport occurring on our big screen whilst the rugby's happening on the field?
Nick Sautner:
So we know that we need to evolve. We need to get our strategy clear, but also COVID has shown, you need to be nimble enough, and agile to be able to change and change quickly.
James Fraser-Murison:
Great, again. Really interesting insight there. That someone like me hadn't thought it from that perspective as well. Obviously the introduction of 5G and the increase in mobile gamers all within the eSports sphere, it really is an interesting time, I think, looking ahead. Nikita, is there anything that you want to jump in before we could go to Greg and Alastair?
Nikita Buffee:
Yeah, briefly, just to echo, I haven't heard of Savannah Bananas either, but it sounds really interesting, and it kind of made me think of a story back in the day. The NBA had a real issue with fan attendance. We're talking a long time ago.
Nikita Buffee:
And there's a book that's on it, and the name of the book unfortunately escapes me, but they turned things around, and now the NBA is well attended. You have all these brands. And I think you can't just follow what has been done. And looking at eSports and gaming as an opportunity to engage with a new audience, a younger one, I think is the right way to look at things.
Nikita Buffee:
Nick, couldn't agree more with Nick's answer also. A lot of people think that gaming is isolating, whereas I would say that a lot of people who want to game are looking to play with friends or to make friends. Maybe they haven't connected at school, maybe they're not the popular kid and they're struggling, and so they've gone online and they've found people around the world to make friends.
Nikita Buffee:
And I think that's incredibly important. And we've seen that at conferences, whether that's PAX or GamesCon, where there's a shared love for something. And that is ultimately what I think will ... Online will never replace real world interactions, because we want to meet people, we're social creatures. We want to go to a stadium.
Nikita Buffee:
We can watch football and rugby at home, we don't need to go. But it's a great experience to go there. And agencies like that Greg, ICRAVE, and Alastair's COX Architecture, they create these environments that are so great for fans to come into, and that's what I'm so excited about seeing as eSports scales up and develops, is we're going to have these local arenas that on a small scale where you can meet friends and families on a week to week basis.
Nikita Buffee:
And then you will travel all the way up to a world championship arena where you are using motion graphics and projection mapping to create something completely unique and people will want to experience that individually and with friends. And I think that's a cool thing, and I don't think that will ever change. And in fact I think it will get better and better as we start to figure out how to meld the digital with the physical.
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely. We'll finish this question just with something from Greg, if I may, because then we'll go on to a question on sponsorship, which Alastair will start us off with. So Greg, is there anything you could add to the contribution so far?
Greg Merkel:
Yeah, speaking at least from my own personal experience, eSports and eSports teams have such a native or natural ability to produce digital content that when we designed the Complexity headquarters, they were purchased by the Dallas Cowboys, they hired us to come in and design their headquarters.
Greg Merkel:
They created a whole series of digital content surrounding the headquarters that we were designing. And it was amazing in that the venue actually became a character in this digital world, in these series of small films. And it built up anticipation, it was like about the creation of this new facility, there was anticipation ... People were invested in this new venue, and it made people want to go to that venue.
Greg Merkel:
So I think that that in and of itself is critical, right? It's not the traditional sports of old where it's just like, we're this team, this is our big stadium, you come to this big stadium when you want to see this big team. It's creating all this other really rich digital content that makes the entire experience all that much more richer, and it has ... And it can allow for the arena to become a character larger than just a place to go.
James Fraser-Murison:
Fantastic, thank you. So we've got 15 minutes left. So we can start to go through one or two of these questions a little quicker, if we may. But I'll start off with Alastair for this one, which is the question on, how do eSports sponsorships differ from the mainstream or traditional sports sponsorships, if I may?
Alastair Richardson:
Yeah, I think the bigger element here, and it was going to be a part of a commentary I was going to add in before, eSports is the first element of the real combination of sport in the new environment, being the social media world.
Alastair Richardson:
Because it's actually a sport you can engage in the social media world, whereas a lot of traditional sports are used in social media as a platform to take a snapshot, put a photograph, say, "I'm here at the game." It's a very different experience.
Alastair Richardson:
I think that gives all sorts of sponsorship opportunities and challenges. We all know already for example that rights holders at traditional sports have massive impact on sponsorships, like FIFA will not allow games to be played in a named venue, in a sponsored venue.
Alastair Richardson:
So you have to remove the sponsorships. So I think the element here for us is actually how do we create this world? And it may well be like a Google platform that actually allows sponsorships to be immersive between venue, i.e. hardware, the actual physicality of that building, to the software experience of moving through your virtual world that can actually be tailed to the audience.
Alastair Richardson:
Because again what you're playing through here is an integrated environment between being live at an actual physical event, whether it's down at the local eSports center, or at a stadium, to the [inaudible 00:46:53] tailoring of the sponsorship will be a very different model in eSports, I feel, than in traditional sports.
Alastair Richardson:
And I think that will be one of the exciting things to see how that emerges, and equally of course for you as eSport developers, as content providers, how you control that revenue, how you can actually gain benefit out of that revenue. And I think that will be one of the challenges coming up.
James Fraser-Murison:
That's fantastic, thank you. Seb, again, we kind of touched upon it there with FIFA, what's been your experience and what are the headlines that are making plays here?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
I think absolutely social is a huge part of it. And I think the interesting thing about us is we have a very blurred world between a real life team and an eSports team. To this day there are some people that still think we are only one or the other. Not just an eSports organization or because of our initial groundings as a football team created from YouTube, that that in some way was around a computer game.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And the thing that made it even more confusing is that our origin story is we created in the real world, a real life pyramid of football or competition structure that mirrored what happens in games like FIFA played out in real life, and the way we had going through the levels and unlockable features.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And that was very much a merging of those two worlds of gamification and real life, in sport. So it's very much in the heart of everything we do. So we have been quite fortunate with some of the commercial sponsorships that we've got, is that we are able to blur that line between real sports and eSports is what we stand for.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
I think that being digital first obviously goes with the territory of eSports, so there are still a lot of brands that will spend a huge amount of their budget on more physical, tangible assets, if you like. But we also are finding that we've started to add some of those things into our properties as well.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So instead of just integration within content, branded content, we've also started to bring out a [inaudible 00:48:47] advertising at our games, or we've started to give, as some of the characters in our world have become more popular, time and meet and great and things with the players.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So, we've added elements of traditional sports sponsorship into our model, and equally I can see a lot of things like primary league football clubs, that I have a very close relationship with many of them, they've started to add a huge amount of digital inventory into their sponsorship packages, so instead of just offering a box at the stadium, and a front shirt partnership and sending a player on to a corporate event or something, they've not started to add that digital activation, that content element to it.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Which I think is just so, so important now. So I think there's a lot of ways that both worlds can learn a lot from each other, and help each other too.
James Fraser-Murison:
The difference and the similarities, I guess with sponsorship from your appreciation of it in your journey, if you wouldn't mind?
Greg Merkel:
This is the one question that I actually wrote down a question mark on. I don't really get so much involved in the sponsorship part of this. But I mean I can imagine, Seb was just mentioning, I think that the digital nature of being able to leverage eyeballs in a different way and different people that want those eyeballs is something that's extremely attractive to specific sponsors. But again, that is definitely not my area of- [crosstalk 00:50:11].
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
One thing- [crosstalk 00:50:11] for sure, is actually the difference in value that's perceived or attained to the different types of sponsorship, like so for example still, you would find that if 50,000 people will watch a football match, a soccer match, there will be a certain value that's attributed to that, for any brand that's exposed to it.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
In the very primitive way it might be like a presenting partner, or in having moments of the match brought to you by, or even just standard primitive advertising. How that is still valued so phenomenally lower than somebody doing an equivalent thing on Twitch with exactly the same number of eyeballs. Okay, maybe a slightly different demographic, but that's one thing that I definitely find is that as digital has broken through you have to constantly justify how the viewership or the eyeballs or the engagement.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Even though on the basics of it, very logic should dictate that it's more valuable, because of the level of interaction. Because of the immediacy of it and because of the trackable nature of it. And how specific you can be by working on very particular content. You know the demographic before you sign up to it. It's not done on surveys or samples or think polls. It should be worth more, but it's still valued phenomenally lower.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
And I think right now the traditional sports sponsorship have been able to hold their value, and what I just don't hope is that from anyone in a sports venue, whichever it is, if digital starts to get a lot more value from that, if eSports gets more value from that, because there is more value there, and money moves over from traditional to eSports.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
But if it gets valued over at a deflated level, then there just money comes out. And people say, "Oh, I won't spend this money here." They're not going to spend the same money. They might say they can spend less.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
So then that's brand money or partner money coming out of sports. I'm not saying that's happening. But that would be one concern. I definitely feel like there needs to be a way that the various people that value these things, like your Nielsen's or what have you, can reinforce the value of digital properties or eSports properties.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Because much as there are real physical events, the vast majority of viewership of eSports is through platforms like Twitch and live streaming and what have you.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yeah, of course, yeah.
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
Yeah, I think it needs to have someone fighting for its value a little more.
James Fraser-Murison:
Okay, thank you.
Nick Sautner:
Yeah, I think also, James, I was just going to say, I think there's a real option around an integrated partnership and a hybrid solution. Where the reality is a lot of the professional athletes are gaming and play eSports.
James Fraser-Murison:
Yes, of course, yeah.
Nick Sautner:
And so that's for me, and just in a different context, with our [inaudible 00:52:47] Cup recently, we had UFC champion Israel [Adisania 00:52:53] on our rooftop [inaudible 00:52:55]. Now, he goes up there, he's gone over 1.2 million views of him being up on our rooftop [inaudible 00:53:05].
Nick Sautner:
Now, in that instance he's got 3.8 million followers in Instagram. So, arguably he's as big as the brands playing on the field. So that's where for us-
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely, yeah.
Nick Sautner:
... the cross promotion that eSports provides is going to be the catalyst for increased sponsorship valuations.
James Fraser-Murison:
Obvious synergy there, obviously. Which is fantastic. Now, there's a couple of minutes left and I want to get two more questions in. So I think I may only have ... The next question will be just for Nikita and Alastair, and then we'll do a summary for everyone for some takeaways if I may. So, Nikita, excuse me, potential curve ball one for you here, but how does the fan become a participant? And where does augmented reality and VR sit in the future of this entertainment? That's quite a lot to unpick there. Let's see how we get on.
Nikita Buffee:
The reality is, my opinions and thoughts on augmented reality is going to be very simple compared to something that I think Alastair and Greg can bring about in the way that they utilize it. From what I know, and my own experiences, I think VR and AR ... We're very excited about it. I don't think it's going to be relevant for ages, apart from in some sort of slightly gimicky way. It's like everyone is like, "Oh, is VR the future of gaming?" Maybe? [crosstalk 00:54:30]
Nikita Buffee:
... I played it a few times, it's fun [inaudible 00:54:32] 10 minutes, and then there will be a time in the future, absolutely, I think it's foolish to not see it. But I think at this point in time it's way more interesting to think about, and from what I've seen actually from friends who work at like Populous, for example, and having worked with them, and using a VR headset to explore an arena, or to be part of a crowd and those sorts of experiences, I think, like I said, the others can talk about that a lot more.
James Fraser-Murison:
That's fair.
Nikita Buffee:
I'm doing this because they're on the right side of my screen, so I'm actually pointing to them when I'm- [crosstalk 00:55:05].
James Fraser-Murison:
That's okay. That's fine.
Nikita Buffee:
For how does a fan become a player, that's the core of what we do. We have two mobile arenas which are essentially big lories that become trucks and stages with 4K streaming studios, and the tagline that we always say is it's bringing eSports and gaming to the players.
Nikita Buffee:
It's bringing a stage and a commentary booth, and a stream to a place, whether we toured around the island and went to Limerick and gave kids the chance to jump up stage, and I was commentating at that point, and I've always thought there's so many opportunities there to give someone something memorable, and memorable comes from emotion.
Nikita Buffee:
At least that's from what I understand. So if you can create these moments, whether it's on our trucks, whether it's at our arenas, where these kids who want to play against their friends, who want to beat their friends, who want to beat their ... Go to a tournament, become the best and win on the stage, well then you've created something, and they become part of an eSports. Whether they become a pro, that's a very different thing.
James Fraser-Murison:
Of course.
Nikita Buffee:
But you don't have to be a pro to experience something cool. And I think like what you guys are doing. You have tournaments every week. And you can be a semi-pro, you can be at uni studying and competing and be one of the best at uni, just like we have collegiate sports, and we have people who are celebrated there.
Nikita Buffee:
And to the point where they're celebrated at such a level that when they went to go and join a professional league, if they manage to take that next step, there's a huge amount of pressure. And I think those are the things that will happen in eSports as the scene and the industry- [crosstalk 00:56:39].
James Fraser-Murison:
Absolutely, thank you. Alastair before we go on to the penultimate question, actually that is the penultimate. Forgive me. Alastair, you've got about 30 seconds to a minute, my friend. If you are able to add to what Nikita has elegantly put together before we do a summary, please?
Alastair Richardson:
Yeah, to sum of Nikita's comments, I think we've got this great opportunity for eSports. I think the importance is that it has to engage from the starting point with the community. The great advantage that it's got compared to traditional sports is it's a smaller footprint of real estate, effectively, that is required.
Alastair Richardson:
Whether that's through touring or through the analogy of the High Street. It's either of those that can actually work to engage in a richness and a penetration with the community. The difference from the starting point is that your fans are dispersed all over the world. This is something like there's not a traditional sport, because the way eGames is played, of course is you can be playing with someone in Las Vegas, or New York, or Australia, it doesn't matter [inaudible 00:57:34] as well, which is a really important component.
Alastair Richardson:
[inaudible 00:57:40] language of playing the game, as opposed to a spoken language. So there's a massive opportunity there.
James Fraser-Murison:
We've got just a couple of minutes left really. We're going to go round as quickly as we can with one takeaway for the audience and possibly for each other as well. Greg. If you can, no pressure, but you're on a timer here for about 20 seconds. What one key takeaway can you give us, please?
Greg Merkel:
My theme of basically everything I was talking about was designing the experience, but designing a multiplicity of use. So giving the ability for these arenas, these venues, to provide more than just the Easter Sunday church experience, right? It's like, what's the other reason to go back?
Greg Merkel:
And so I think for these venue owners, to be able to think of it that way. What else are you providing? What other kind of experiences? What other venues, or what other ... Is it food? Is it learning? When we designed the Complexity training facility, it had a whole public facing component of it that was inviting the public in, which is a kind of first of its kind to do that. So yeah, multiplicity of experiences and designing the overall experience.
James Fraser-Murison:
Fantastic. [inaudible 00:58:58] thank you so much, Seb, if you wouldn't mind please?
Seb Carmichael-Brown:
The biggest thing for me is just great encouragement about what's happening at some of the world's greatest sporting venues like what Nick's doing at Eden Park is to find them a way of bringing eSports to that global stage in physical cities. It's very encouraging, it's definitely what's needed for the maturation of eSports, it needs to find a way of engaging fans in real life to be just more than something people watch for a few hours on their screens at home. And it's great to see that venues like Nick's are getting involved in that, it's very exciting.
James Fraser-Murison:
Superb. Thank you. Finally let's go around the room, Alastair you're next on the list, please, if you wouldn't mind?
Alastair Richardson:
Sure, I think on one side we've got, using some religious analogies we've got the cathedrals of sport being the cathedrals also of eSports which are the larger venues. I think the key on this is actually how we engaged with High Street as well. A massive opportunity as a result of the pandemic and the whole changing nature of how we consume.
Alastair Richardson:
My thoughts are we've got to look at this as a multiplicity of different scaled experiences. And the starting point to get that reach in the community is certainly going to be High Street.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you muchly, and then Nick and lastly Nikita, if you wouldn't mind, Nick, if you wouldn't- [crosstalk 01:00:15].
Nick Sautner:
Thanks James, and thanks to the panel, I've really enjoyed today's conversation. And for us in order to get your eSports strategy and making it sustainable you need the right people in the room. Like any decision in business, without having the right people in the room you're destined to failure. And so, I think that's critical that engaging with the experts and them being courageous to make change when needed.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you. No pressure, Nikita, but you are wrapping this up for us.
Nikita Buffee:
Literally 10 seconds. [crosstalk 01:00:53]. I think eSports and gaming represents a unique and exciting opportunity for brands to engage with basically the fans of the future and the generation of the future. And I think they shouldn't be scared of it. I think it's an exciting opportunity to bring people in, and they should embrace it.
James Fraser-Murison:
Thank you. For me personally, as a mere mortal amongst this kind of digital chatroom here, I am a teacher, so I have just learned an awful lot already which I'll be able to pass on to my 16, 17, and 18 year old students. So to echo Nick's thoughts, thank you so much one and all for giving up your time and to the audience. It's been a real pleasure, and thank you to everyone watching at home, take care. Thank you very much.
Nick Sautner:
Thank you. [crosstalk 01:01:56].
Greg Merkel:
Thanks everyone.